[jdom-interest] Re: [Jython-users] Scripting Pages in Java Web Applications

[Michael Grogan]

Hi

There is a misunderstanding of what the JSR proposes here.  See the draft at 

http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223.

The goal of the JSR is to provide a consistent and standard mechanism for scripting languages to use to access functionality implemented in Java.  As the JSR points out, the way that Java objects are represented and accessed from a particular scripting language has to be specific to that language.  A mechanism that required a scripting language implemented in Java to access other Java objects using JNI wouldn't make sense.  The JSR doesn't propose that.

The focus of the JSR is on web scripting.  A major goal is to allow developers to bundle script pages in Java Web applications and provide a mechanism for those pages to access the standard Java web abstractions (request, response, context etc.) in a way that is consistent with the way they are accessed from Servlets and JSPs.

Python/Jython is definitely one of the scripting languages we hope will benefit from the JSR.  We welcome your input.

//mike


----- Original Message -----
From: Frank Cohen <fcohen at pushtotest.com>
Date: Monday, June 16, 2003 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: [Jython-users] Scripting Pages in Java Web Applications

> Hi Guido: It's an honor to write to you. Python is an excellent 
> piece 
> of work. Thank you for Python.
> 
> I am using Jython embedded in my TestMaker open-source project as 
> a 
> utility and framework for building intelligent test agents to 
> check 
> Web-enabled applications for scalability, performance and 
> functionality. I am trying to convince developers, QA technicians 
> and 
> IT managers that Python is their lingua-franca to build better 
> software. Details are at http://www.pushtotest.com/ptt.
> 
> In my opinion JSR 223 is not worthy of support. JSR 223 implements 
> a 
> very un-Java like way to bridge Java objects to script language 
> functions. 223 aims to provide a native interface to make calls 
> from a 
> Java object to a limited number of common scripting functions. 
> While 
> there may be times when a native interface is useful, I would 
> never 
> like to include a native interface in my production-ready code. 
> It's 
> asking for problems, including:
> 
> 1) Weak exception handling. If my scripting language interpreter 
> runs 
> externally to the Java VM then how do I handle recovering from an 
> exception in the interpreter?
> 2) Slower performance. Native interfaces take processing time and 
> memory to make a call to an external function.
> 3) Fewer expert resources to help me code. Look at how few 
> engineers 
> there are with production JNI experience.
> 
> In my view, JSR 223 should be restarted. I believe Jython's use of 
> Java 
> byte codes is a much better design.
> 
> Jython compiles Python scripts into Java byte codes. The Python 
> script 
> in Jython is 100% Java and runs as native Java code through the 
> VM. 
> Imagine if JSR 223 standardized the way script languages  compiled 
> scripts into Java byte-codes. You could have PHP, Python, Ruby, 
> and 
> anything else... and they would all be 100% Java.
> 
> Support for Java byte-codes is important in the middleware space, 
> where 
> J2EE and .NET are battling it out for developer mindshare and 
> support. 
> Microsoft has done an excellent job at building its CLR virtual 
> machine 
> to support multiple object-oriented languages. The Java platform 
> would 
> be so much better with multiple language support... all running on 
> the 
> Java VM.
> 
> -Frank Cohen
> http://www.pushtotest.com/ptt
> TestMaker 4.0 now shipping
> 
> 
> On Thursday, June 12, 2003, at 06:59 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> 
> > A journalist reporting on JavaOne pointed me to the following Java
> > standardization effort:
> >
> > http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=223
> >
> > AFAICT (after reading the first two sentences) this is an 
> attempt to
> > open up room for scripting languages in J2EE environments.  Anyone
> > interested in pursueing this?
> >
> > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
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> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> --
> Frank Cohen, Founder, PushToTest, http://www.PushToTest.com, 
> phone: 408 
> 374 7426
> Come to PushToTest for free open-source test automation solutions 
> that 
> test and monitor
> Web-enabled applications, especially Web Services for scalability 
> and 
> reliability.
> 
> 
>